“Archaeology is Searching and Searching is an Adventure”

For archaeology enthusiasts around the world, Dr. Zahi Hawass needs little introduction. He is the Egyptian archaeologist who has introduced the wider public worldwide to his country’s archaeology and history. In recognition of this contribution—particularly through his work in archaeological documentaries—he was recently honored with an Award of Excellence at the 13th AGON International Festival of Archaeological and Cultural Documentary Films and traveled to Athens, where we had the opportunity to meet him.

Zahi Hawass completed his formative academic education in Alexandria and Cairo before joining Egypt’s Antiquities Organization as an archaeologist. He later pursued doctoral studies in the United States as a Fulbright Fellow. His international experience, combined with his deep love for his homeland and his natural gift for storytelling, inspired him to do something no other local Egyptian archaeologist had ever done before: communicate his archaeological work to global audiences through mass media. In doing so, he reclaimed for the Egyptians the way European and American archaeologists widely communicated Egyptological work during the late 19th and early 20th centuries; he turned the “orientalist adventure” of the so-called “Golden Age of Egyptology” into an adventure of understanding our own past by meeting and celebrating the lives of those who walked this world before us.  The “Valley of the Golden Mummies” in Bahariya, the discovery of the workmen’s village at Giza—which refuted the long-held belief that the pyramids were built exclusively by slaves, stressing the work of skilled free Egyptians—and many other finds were presented to the world through articles, books, and documentaries that captivated the public. He changes the public image of an archaeologist-treasure hunter to that of an archaeologist-public servant who excavates evidence within a professional and regulated framework, stressing that this alone is an adventure. Still, he remained open to international talent, forming ongoing collaborations with top international scholars, thus bridging the gap between local state-led and overseas Egyptian archaeology. Over the years, his public career and enduring visibility have established him as an irreplaceable figure in public archaeology: he is known as the “Man with the Hat” for the trademark wide-brimmed hat he wears while digging.

Rising through the ranks of Egypt’s antiquities administration, Dr. Hawass became Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities in 2002 and later Deputy Minister of Culture in 2009. He rules the Council with a firm hand and often in a controversial way, encouraging archaeological work in Egypt as long as it is done within legal bounds, and preventing those who break regulations in any way. During his service, he continues to dig and participate in several landmark research initiatives, including the Egyptian Mummy Project (2007), in which forensic-archaeological techniques helped clarify genealogical links between the mummified remains of pharaohs and their relatives. During the Arab Spring in Egypt, he briefly served as Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs (2011). His departure was turbulent and eventful, but, in retrospect, it left a void in heritage management. For him, however, the end of public office marked the beginning of an even more intensive period of research and public engagement. He writes books, conducts groundbreaking projects, curates massive traveling exhibitions, teaches, and gives documentary presentations. Since 2021, he has been an ambassador for the UN World Tourism Organization (UNWTO). And, of course, he keeps digging, bringing to light even more impressive discoveries, such as a New Kingdom city in West Thebes.

His views are strong but fair. He continuously speaks against pseudoscience, looting, and the illicit trafficking of antiquities. He consistently advocates for the authenticity of archaeological sites, the protection of monuments, responsible tourism, and the return of cultural artifacts to their countries of origin through clear and practical policies. He remains open to international cooperation and believes that nationality does not matter in archaeology, as long as the work is done well.

Zeta Xekalaki met and interviewed him for Archaeology & Arts in Athens, one day before he received his excellence award at AGON 13 closing ceremony. We thank him for his time with us.

Zeta Xekalaki: You have a long history in documentary filmmaking with series that help define the gender’s popularity. How do you see the role of a festival such as AGON in spreading archaeological knowledge?

Zahi Hawass: The festival is a very good idea. It is really good to have a festival about archaeological documentaries. It brings people together, and it’s also a brilliant idea to choose good documentaries and give awards and grants.

Z.X.: Your presence at AGON places you in direct contact with a Greek audience, which is deeply connected to antiquity. What interests you most in conveying to this audience through your participation in the festival?

Z.H.: You know, I think the Greek audience knows me through the films that I did on TV. To be in the festival, I think I’m honored to have this award. But I don’t know if… being here is something that allows [the audience] to really see me. Still, the audience can see me through the interviews that we did yesterday – I did a TV show-, and with you today. And this, I think this is a good idea.

Z.X.: How do you think that archaeological documentaries should evolve? What “new” should bring forward?

Z.H.: I don’t understand your question.

Z.X.: Well, archaeological documentaries depict excavation projects and archaeologists digging. Do you think the way archaeology is portrayed is good enough for now, or should we ask for something more, as well?

Z.H.: The TV shows, the documentary TV shows, are really good to introduce archaeology to the public, because archaeologists in general write articles that no one can really read, and they aren’t able to go to [i.e., reach] the public. The only way for the public to understand what’s going on in archaeology is through the documentary TV shows.

Z.X.: Do you believe there’s a big difference between how archaeology is actually practiced and the way it appears on TV shows? What’s the difference between the two?

Z.H.: I think it depends on what the film director wants. Is it a story? Then, they can talk about the story. But it’s for the excavation. Most documentary films show how archaeologists excavate, discover, and restore, let’s say, a statue. It is really good to tell people also that archaeology is not Raiders of the Lost Ark. Archaeology is science, technology, and techniques. And this is seen in many documentaries that have been done all over the world.

Z.X.: When we introduced AGON Festival 13 (i.e., during the Press Conference), somebody said that “archaeological documentary, bottom line, is fiction”.

Z.H.: That’s not true at all. Documentaries are really documenting facts. And fiction means drama. It goes with Hollywood movies. This is the fiction. But all the documentaries that I made in my life were really talking about pyramids, talking about my excavation in Luxor, in the Valley of the Kings, and all of these, really documented facts, not fiction.

Z.X.: Sometimes, though, we see that things are changing so as to please audiences. So, is it worth changing aspects of archaeological storytelling in order to make it more entertaining and accessible?

Z.H.: No, I think to make archaeology films accessible, it depends on permissions, government security permissions, and also archaeologists. Some archaeologists are not open to documentaries. And this is not good because I think that we need the public to understand their history. And the only way to understand our history in every region is through documentaries. And this can be seen in documentaries from National Geographic, Discovery Channel, History Channel, Nova… Really, they have played a very important role in documenting our work. And I think the most important thing is to make their work (i.e., the Media) easier, because in some countries it is difficult to get permission. It is also difficult to understand archaeologists in the documentaries. You have to make your subject easy for them (i.e., the audience) to understand. There are many things that have to be done through this specific AGON Festival. Maybe if they can sit together, producers, film directors, and archaeologists, this will benefit the subject.

Z.X.: So, what should be the primary target of the presentation and promotion of antiquities? Local communities or foreign visitors?

Z.H.: For me, everyone. I think the local community and people all over the world. I think with my documentaries, I can see how it’s known everywhere (i.e., archaeology), not only in Egypt. And this really helped a lot. I did some documentaries as  “adventure”, and I found that this type of documentary makes children interested in archaeology. And that’s really very important to present the subject in the context of an adventure, because archaeology is searching, and searching means you have to go through the adventure and the thrill of the discovery. If you are able to show that through yourself in the documentaries, I think documentaries can be very successful.

Z.X.: What do you actually think that made you so popular with audiences around the world?

Z.H.: I think the thing is the passion in the story. My passion for archaeology and that when I talk in any documentaries as if I’m talking about a lover, which is archaeology, and then my words go into the hearts of people everywhere. I think this is the only reason for that.

Z.Χ.: You are known as “the man with the hat”. What made you adopt an Indiana Jones style as a part of your public image?

Z.H.: By accident! I never looked at it at all, and I never thought about it at all. I had certain jeans, and shoes, and a shirt… and the hat, I found it’s a good way to protect myself from the sun. But it became very famous! And this is why George Lucas, who invented Indiana Jones, when he came to Egypt, he came to ask me why my hat became more famous than Harrison Ford’s hat. And this is why there is now a company selling my hat. The sales, the money, went for the construction of the Children’s Museum in Cairo. And as the museum is open now, the money goes now to the hospital, the Children’s Cancer Hospital in Cairo.

Z.Χ.: If you were starting your career today, would you change anything about the way you present yourself?

Z.H.: No, nothing. I also, I never made a decision that I’m sorry for. Anything I did in my life, I do not regret it. I value it.

Z.Χ.: Do you think that, as an Egyptian Egyptologist, you understand and can portray certain aspects of the ancient Egyptian culture better than someone from abroad?

Z.H.: No. I think that if you study the subject well, there are many good foreign archaeologists and Egyptologists who really portray ancient Egypt in a beautiful way. And, very few, actually, very few Egyptians, who do that. Because we also have to understand that documentaries are not for one to talk all the time, but only for some “bites”. Then, when you talk about archeology, you need to understand what it means to give a short sentence that can go to the heart of the public. And I value anyone who can do that. A foreigner, or an Egyptian. I think if you are also a foreigner doing documentaries, and you come to Egypt, you pay a fee, and you can do it. Maybe Egyptians can’t be approached because most of the foreign film directors come with their own people, right? And very few who look for Egyptians. I began capturing the hearts of people. Maybe I’m the only one who has always looked to do that. And I really began to select not to do all the documentaries.

Z.Χ.: And what about actual archaeology, like digging? Do you think that an Egyptian archaeologist in Egypt or a Greek archaeologist in Greece can do the job better? Like, having a privilege?

Z.H.: I mean, good archaeology is possible for everyone. A foreigner or an Egyptian. I have teams working in the Valley of the Kings and Saqqara. And we, we do not like to compete with anyone. We like to do a good job. I mean, excavation has to be accurate, has to be correct, has to be scientific… Documentation is very important, and restoration is very important. Anyone can do that. And this is good.

Z.Χ.: Thank you very much for stating so. Now, let’s talk about your different roles throughout your career. You have been an archaeologist, an SCA Director General, a Minister of Antiquities, and even a reality show presenter at some point. So, in which role do you believe you contributed most to the discipline?

Z.H.: I always think that archaeology became a big part of my life. And that’s why even when I do administration, I never forget the job that I’m doing: Archaeologist. Then, when I was a minister, I’d still go to the field and work. And that’s why I can say that the most important role for me, in all my career, is to do the excavation and also present it in a book… or a lecture all over the world, which is why I travel everywhere lecturing about my work.

Z.Χ.: And which of those roles made you the happiest?

Z.H.: You know, I think that for any time being as an archaeologist in the field, this was the happiest moment in my life. And, especially when I discover something I enter inside, a sarcophagus for the first time, or revealing statues from the sand… That really is the happiest moment for me.

Z.Χ.: I will agree with you! So, now, which was the most difficult time during your work?

Z.H.: Conservation. When you work and discover a tomb, and you see deterioration in the tomb or the statue, if it’s made of wood and has been exposed to air, it can be destroyed. This is really a difficult time.

Z.X.: Which has been the most difficult period in your career?

Also, in my career, every time I face idiots (sic.) who really talk about aliens having built the pyramids and things like that… this is sometimes difficult, and it sometimes makes me very angry. Because I have to answer those people, to tell them that the pyramids were the national project of the whole nation. If you try to build one today, you will never be able to do it because you are not going to hire 10,000 workmen a day to work for 28 years in building a pyramid. You will never do that. And that’s why it’s really sometimes bad. Or when you see people talking about black Americans, and saying their origin is ancient Egypt. Well, there are no pyramids built by aliens. When I did the podcast with Joe Rogan and also the other one with Piers Morgan, all of them are really going to the point that aliens built the pyramids. But sometimes, people think that all these theories make Egyptology more popular, which can be true.

Z.Χ.: So, do you think that Egyptology faces any dangers or challenges now?

Z.H.: The challenge is tourism, because you need to accommodate between the need for tourism and the preservation of antiquities, since mass tourism can destroy the tombs. And that’s why you need to have site management for every site, and to try to protect the sites. This is really the most important challenge now.

Z.Χ.: By the way, do you think archaeology as a practice is more closely connected to tourism or to education?

Z.H.: You know, I think it’s more now to tourism because tourists, like when I did visit Ephesus, I did not like it because there has been too much reconstruction. And I always say that if you discover a chair, and the chair is missing one piece of a leg, you can complete that. But if you discover a leg of a chair, you can’t build a chair. And this is why archaeologists have to agree that reconstruction is not a good idea. You have to leave the site as it is, then you can smell the past in it. And that’s why archaeologists have to work in a site with architects. You cannot leave architects alone on a site to restore it because they don’t understand; they have to do the work in cooperation with archaeologists. I think the major problem with Ephesus was that an architect worked without an archaeologist.

Z.Χ.: Let’s talk about an example from Egypt. Do you like the new elements added at the site of the pyramids of Giza? The access to the site, all those new entrances, and all the development done…

Z.H.: Still, I don’t like the building that’s happening around the pyramids, the building that brings the village a few meters away from the Sphinx. And that really makes me very upset because you need to preserve the sites. But the public always tries to use the sites on their own. At the end, the sites are ruined, and the magic of the pyramids will be gone. And that’s why I don’t agree with many things happening now on the sites.

Z.Χ.: What about the issue of different uses, such as festivals and weddings?

Z.H.: I disagree completely. When I was the Head of Antiquities, I never permitted any weddings to happen. Only if we had cultural events, like opera, but these too, in the desert, away from the pyramids. But now, the site has become like a zoo.

Z.Χ.: For you, what is the most misunderstood thing in Egyptology?

Z.H.: Many things, many things… Like what the public today thinks about pyramids. It’s bad. Also, about Cleopatra, because people don’t know… who was she? Because Plutarch did not live in the time of Cleopatra. And that’s why there are many misunderstood stories about Cleopatra. With ancient Egypt (i.e., Pharaonic Egypt), there are also many things that when they (i.e. writers)  came, they talked about them, as they had heard them from guides. But we will still repeat these stories. But when you do drama, film drama, you can make any story you want, but try to be accurate. To show the writing, hieroglyphics, or houses correctly. Clothing…the costumes always have to be accurate.

Z.Χ.: Egypt and Greece have much in common. Both countries have important cultural artifacts scattered across museums worldwide. In recent years, Greece has seen some European museums return certain antiquities. Yet many of the most significant antiquities still remain abroad. For Egypt, I am talking about the Rosetta Stone, the Dendera Zodiac, and the bust of Nefertiti, and for Greece, the Parthenon Marbles. Do you believe we will ever see these artifacts return to where they truly belong?

Z.H.: I admire the way that the former Minister of Culture in Greece (i.e., Melina Merkouri) did. She did very well standing against the British Museum. And I’m doing the same now. I have these two petitions on the Internet to ask, one for the return of the Rosetta Stone from the British Museum and the Zodiac from the Louvre, and the second about Nefertiti from Berlin. Then, if I reach one million, I will start asking the public for the return. I really think the most important thing that we have to do, Greece, Egypt, and other countries, is to hold a conference and bring UNESCO to try to change the “bad laws” (sic.) that UNESCO did. Like, what they did was saying that if anything was discovered was stolen before 1970, you cannot take it back. But I really admire the governments of Greece and Ethiopia now, who are really doing a good job. I went to the British Museum two weeks ago, and I did go to the Rosetta Stone, and I said: “This should not be in the British Museum; it should be in Egypt”. The British Museum has thousands of Egyptian artifacts. I’m not asking for these to come back. I ask for one piece to come back.

Z.Χ.: So what about certain finds from Egypt that left the country not as stolen, but as offered, or through the “partage” system?

Z.H.: You cannot bring them back. These things are offered by the government in return for major discoveries. Like the statue of Hemiunu, the architect of the Great Pyramid, in Hildesheim, was given to the person who excavated the Western field, a German. And, also, Reisner. We gave him the statue of Ankhaf because he discovered the tomb of Hetep-Heres. You cannot ask for these back. I’m asking only for the three artifacts. And, also, museums in Europe and America have to stop buying stolen artifacts. Because, to buy for a museum, to buy stolen artifacts is to encourage thieves to go and enter magazines and tombs and damage everything.

Z.Χ.: Closing, what would you like to tell our readers?

Z.H.: I will tell the readers that most of the countries that really want to save their heritage, they have to support excavation and restoration. If you have some kind of fund that you can offer, so that archaeologists can continue their work and preserve their antiquities, this is something that we value now.

Z.Χ.: Great, thank you very much for your time with me. I was really, really honored to meet you.